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The system of registering designs with a specific
number was introduced at the end of 1883
It superseded the previous 'Diamond' registrations
Where used, such Registered numbers (Rd No.........) give an accurate
date for when a design was first produced
Such designs could then be produced in quantity for as long as
needed or fashionable and numbers therefore only give the earliest
date in which an object could have been produced
Since improvements in design have always been a driving force
in the industrial societies, many of the numbers would only have
been used for a few years and therefore do give a helpful guide
The numbers can be used to assess the first year of manufacture
from these approximate figures showing the first numbers issued
each year
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x Solution Number One x |
Sunday 6th April 2008
Email to Marks4Ceramics
....................three of the above photos were included with this note
This Chamber Pot was purchased at an
Antique Auction here in Cairns Australia during January 2005
It was listed as A LARGE LATE-VICTORIAN CHAMBER POT by SYLVAN
The measurements are 9 inches diameter across the top and 5.25
inches high
Using your web site, I have looked under 'Ribbons and Banners'
and also the letter 'S'
I found that there are other references to a Sylvan Backstamp,
but nothing similar to this one
I have also tried to research the number '231214' at this site
'http://www.ipo.gov.uk/design.htm'
and also this site 'http://ep.espacenet.com/'
without any sort of success
I would like to know the true age of the Pot and where it was
made, etc, etc
So I am hoping you can give me information on both the backstamp
and the 'Rd' number
Thank you, Geoff Roneberg
Reply from Marks4Ceramics
Hello Geoff, and thanks for your inquiry and great photos!
Although there is a company called SYLVAN POTTERY, Ltd. (Hanley,
Staffordshire, UK - ca 1946 - 1985), the SYLVAN on your mark
is actually the Pattern Name
This Pattern was made by only three companies in the UK, though
there were other companies in other countries that also used this
name for a Pattern, like NORITAKE
The UK companies were as follows:-
---------------BROWN-WESTHEAD, MOORE & Co. (Staffordshire, UK,
ca 1862 - 1904)
---------------JOHN & WILLIAM RIDGWAY (Staffordshire, UK, ca 1814
- 1830)
---------------JOHNSON BROS. (HANLEY), Ltd. (Staffordshire, UK, ca
1883 - Present)
The "Rd" number stands for "Registered" and
is a number assigned by the British Patent Office for Designs
& Inventions in Britain, a system used after 1883
For a key to this and other British Ceramics dating systems, please
refer to our "Dating British Ceramics" page through
our 'Extra Help' section
In your case, the Rd Number 231214 corresponds to the year
1894, which dates your piece
Using this dating, J & W RIDGWAY can be excluded from the
above list
Of the remaining two, our best opinion is that your Chamber
Pot was made by BROWN-WESTHEAD, MOORE & Co. as it is more
in line with other similar marks they used
Thanks again and regards, Elizabeth
'Thank You' note
Thank you for this very easy-to-understand and comprehensive answer
Regards, Geoff
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x Solution Number Two x |
Monday
7th April 2008
Email to The National Archives of the United Kingdom
Can you help me find details on an 'Rd' design number?
We are not scholars or students, just average people who like
to attend antique auctions
We have purchased a CHAMBER POT which has the name SYLVAN on the
bottom along with the Rd231214 number
With any item we buy, we like to find out as much information
about it as we possibly can
No real compelling or urgent reason, but purely just for interest
sake
I have spent a lot of time looking around the internet and it
seems that this number was first used in 1894
I then came across your web site, and decided to do a search for
this design number
I was hoping to be able to look at any records, photos or drawings
relating to this registration
I think I have found it!! ... somewhere in a catalogue with the
number BT50/208
As I mentioned, I think this is it, but I cannot open or access
this catalogue
I have clicked on lots of links, but cannot open anything which
gives any details
We live in Australia, and I have seen your order form, etc, but
naturally I don't want to pay and have this catalogue sent via
email unless it is the right one
So I am asking for your assistance
Are you able to clarify whether our Chamber Pot registration number
is included in this catalogue, and if not could you tell me where
to look
Also, would you mind letting me know what is involved with the
registration, for example, number of pages and drawings, and how
much this all will cost
Finally, could you please advise on the exact wording and number
references of any order I place - I don't want to get it wrong
!!
Thanks for your time, and appreciate any assistance you can give
Regards, Geoff
Trinity Beach Cairns Australia
Friday
18th April 2008
Email from Jane Brown - Advice and Records Knowledge Department
of The National Archives
Dear Mr Roneberg
The registration Rd231214 is held in our document reference BT51/76
and was registered on 23rd April 1894 as a set, by Williamson
& Sons of Longton Staffordshire
As the registration states 'a set' this probably indicates that
this was part of a wash basin, wash jug, chamber pot set, etc
A representation drawing, photograph or design, will be held in
document reference BT50/208 which may confirm this
Please note that due to research constraints I have not inspected
this document
Please note these designs are not available for viewing via the
internet
To see and obtain a copy of the full registration for your item
you will need both the references quoted above
Copies may be ordered from our record copying department who will
send you a quote for copying both documents
Further information regarding registered Designs is available
free of charge via our website
Yours sincerely, Jane Brown
Friday
18th April 2008
Request form via The National Archives web site
I have had contact with Jane Brown of your Advice and Records
Knowledge Section and your reference number for my inquiry is
PR'08 E20
She sent me the two numbers, BT51/76 and BT50/208, and I would
like a quote for the documents relating to Registered Design 231214,
which was first registered on 23rd April 1894
We have a ceramic Chamber Pot which is marked Rd231214
Thank You
Tuesday
6th May 2008
Email from Record Copying Department
Dear Mr Geoff Roneberg
Thank you for using The National Archives Record Copying Service
Your images are now available
Description of items ordered - Document BT51/76..........and a copy of this document is below
The cost was GBP£2.10
Thank you again for using Record Copying Service
Tuesday
6th May 2008
Email from the Record Copying Department
The document BT50/208 is unavailable for this estimate and has
been removed, because it is currently in use with another National
Archives department
Due to the need to securely move thousands of documents every
week, it is impractical for us to estimate documents that are
in use for other purposes
It is advisable to wait at least one month from completion of
this estimate before making another attempt to have this document
estimated
Friday
13th June 2008
Email from the Record Copying Department
Dear Mr Roneberg
Unfortunately, we have had to abandon your estimate because the
requested document, BT50/208, is currently in use with another
National Archives department and unavailable for estimating
Due to the need to securely move and track the locations of thousands
of documents every week, out of millions contained within the
repositories, it is impractical for us to estimate documents that
are in use for other purposes
We do not know when this document will become available for estimating,
but it is generally advisable to wait at least one month from
receipt of this email before submitting a fresh estimate request
Tuesday
29th July 2008
Email from Record Copying Department
Dear Mr Geoff Roneberg
Thank you for using The National Archives Record Copying Service
Your images are now available
Description of items ordered - Document BT50/208..........and a copy of this document is below
The cost was GBP£2.80
Thank you again for using Record Copying Service
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x ???---???---??? x Which Solution is Right x ???---???---??? x #1 - is the pot made by "Brown-Westhead, Moore & Co" using a design that is registered to "Williamson & Sons"?? x #2 - is the pot made and designed by "Williamson & Sons" and that "Brown-Westhead, Moore & Co" had nothing to do with it at all?? x I guess we will never really know the complete story It's been a hundred-and-fourteen years since it was made!! x |